Church leaders should channel their energy toward maintaining purity in the church instead of spending great amounts of time and ministry on relating to the culture. Dever said at a forum sponsored by the seminary's Korean Student Fellowship Oct. 9.
The idea that the Gospel must be made relevant is a liberal assumption which if taken to its end can result in the theological liberalism of Friedreich Schleiermacher the father of Protestant liberalism. Dever said adding that numerous church models seek to be relevant and do not reach the unorthodox conclusions of liberalism but remain unhealthy because they are based on an unbiblical definition of success.
"The problem with the seeker-sensitive model emerging church model and even the traditional model that say. 'Get as many people into a room as possible and share the Gospel with them,' is that they view success in light of visible fruit," he said. "All three of these approaches say. 'Change your techniques and let's get some numbers.'
"Instead of being directed by [visible] success we should be directed by faithfulness. We should say. 'If the Lord doesn't like our product we will change the product.' We shouldn't take the idea that if we don't have X number of conversions in our church then we must be doing something wrong. I am glad Jeremiah didn't think that. And I am glad that Jesus Christ didn't think that. Let us remember that we are following the One who was crucified as a revolutionary."
"You must have preaching that makes the point of the text the point of the message and where the Gospel is always present," Dever said noting the first of the nine marks of a healthy church is expositional preaching.
"In the Bible the people never create God's Word. Instead. God's Word always creates the people. That is how God has always worked. And that is how we should preach. That is how people are saved and how people are sanctified. God's Spirit works with His Word.
Second sound theology will go hand-in-hand with expositional preaching further helping people view the world through God's eyes. Biblical understandings of the Gospel conversion and evangelism also will promote church health he said.
Church membership and church discipline each must be preached and practiced by church leaders to maintain purity within local churches. Dever said. Church membership and discipline fulfill Jesus' command to love one another and church leaders will give an account for the people they allow into their congregation he said.
"The basic idea of practicing a self-conscious allegiance to a certain group of people and to a certain group of elders is taught in the Bible," he said. "Our church membership should capture what it means to be a Christian through people's actions.
"Jesus said that they would know that you are Christians by your love not for the people in the community but for each other. Somehow what happens in the community of a congregation is more powerful even than your individual honesty and kindness to others. I think we will give an account to God for the membership of the church in which we pastor," Dever said.
Patience and courage are needed to correct a situation where the number of church members greatly exceeds those who faithfully attend and participate in the life of the church he said.
"Second you must be very patient. It took me two years to finish dealing with that issue in a very stable. Bible-believing congregation. Get counsel from older men who agree with you theologically.
"And when the time comes what is typically lacking in pastors in many cases is courage," Dever said adding that it takes "courage to look at a man twice your age and tell him that he has been doing things wrong all his life. You must keep making it very clear what a Christian is."
Grendal -You know I love ya but this is where I disagree with you. I don’t believe it’s a matter of changing Sunday morning (or whenever the church meets for worship & fellowship). That time is still there for the body of Christ to gather together in order to worship God pray fellowship celebrate and be equipped with doctrine.
It’s the other 6 days of the week that need to change. Instead of getting bubbled up in our Christian coffeeshops bookstores etc. the church needs to go out to the world to *intentionally* share the gospel with them. What we refer to as “friendship evangelism” certainly plays a part in that but I personally believe we need to be more intentional in our sharing.
There’s nothing wrong in bringing those who are lost into the church on Sunday morning (I greatly encourage it!) but that’s not the primary purpose that time is for. Since the church is the body of Christ when the church gathers together they need to be able to do the stuff only the church can.
My answer to Michael -What should the church be actively doing? Stop pretending that Jesus is our Lord & King 1 hour a week & actually live like He is our King all the time.
I’m not sure I agree with Dever (in the above article) on church membership. He seems to think that it’s membership that ties believers together when in actuality it’s Christ. I just don’t see a biblical mandate for a formal membership program in Scripture. Not that I have a problem with it - if that’s what your church does then God bless you. But to think we’re going to give an account to God for our membership is a bit off. To my reading of the Scripture. God is going to keep us account to how we taught & tended His flock…not whether or not we kept membership rolls.
Doulos,The church is always the body of christ respecting Paul’s word picture. We are that body if separated by miles and interacting at a blog or if we come together on the first day of the week. I’m one of those who holds all days the same. The day doesn’t matter except that in our culture it’s become sacred to some.
If we had no false constructs about who can associate where or when based on their title or spiritual status then we would have the thing Jesus spoke of. Once we make these false distinctions we return to the law segregation and something less than Jesus’ model.
Q&A is vitally needed because the followers of Jesus need to think and not be told what to think. Q&A makes for a risky moment but the A can be answered from within the gathering and damage control can take place on the micro level if needed.
We’re experimenting with all these points at theeffect and it’s wonderful to see genuine engagement and life change on the part of those who would otherwise count themselves out before ever showing up.
But there comes a time where the body needs to be equipped for the work of the ministry. And although unsaved people are welcome to attend that time isn’t primarily for them; it’s for the church.
I didn’t mean to imply that this only occurs on Sunday morning. For the church of Acts it happened every day. But the *church* still needs to gather to pray break bread have fellowship and learn doctrine. Whenever or wherever that may be.
In addition to Douly’s commentsStop being judgmental and become respectful of all individuals as created in the image of God;Adopt a different style of drawing people to Christ namely as Douly said being what the bible teaches. Let church be a place where outsiders are welcomed just as they are with a focus of learning about Christ and transformationChristians stop trying to prove their points and start loving people morePastors and Christians stop acting as if we have it all figured out–or that our brand of Christianity is the preferred way and if one was truly spiritual they’d see ther way the only way to worship;
Start teaching the scriptures again doing all we can to make sure people understand what is being taught. It’s not enough to serve a meal the people have to digest it.
However isn’t it a good thing to “sharpen” each other with these types of discussions? I’ve been an observer here for a number of weeks and only recently have I begun to post. (just escaped the emergent movement by the skin of my teeth) I’ve learned alot from everyone here even grendal
At any rate in response to Dever’s contention that “accountability and responsibility comes best through identification and membership in a local church” I have a question.
What does that look like? I’m leary of the emergent’s model of lumping their men together to spew their problems at one another. That seems like a Dr. Phil perscription to me. I have seen so many of those groups fail quickly. I’ve also seen the information shared in the context of those groups used to hurt individuals.
That is what happens at Doug Padgitt’s (sp) church in Minnesota - it doesn’t matter if you want to believe in Jesus or not just have a good time and make sure that others will have a good time.
So during the Q&A the first question gets asked “why do I need to be saved and why do I need a savior?” What cha gonna tell him in front of the group? If you don’t preach the bad news at that point in all of it’s awfulness and wrath you have no right to give them the good news.
What message are we sending to the homosexual convert by accommodating them differently? Do you think that by us “handling” their chains different then the next converts chains may train young believers in erroneous beliefs pertaining to sin?
Sorry there’s no silver bullet in methodology no “way” that is right to reach this culture. As long as we seek the “correct” or “appropriate” method we’ve missed the point. Following Christ is something we are not what we do. Light shines. Salt preserves seasons creates thirst…They just are. Light doesn’t try to figure out how to shine it shines. Salt doesn’t attempt to be more salty it just salts. Love just loves. Hope hopes. When people see love light hope joy and so on they wonder about it are attracted to it or want to snuff it out. We are to be ready to give an answer to anyone who inquires about the hope that is within us. What good is it if we have all our answers prepared (methodology) but we have no apparent hope (substance)?
I am in agreement with Michael on the basics of the gospel. My answer to this question would be in terms of how we do church in our culture and how we relate to the culture around us; are we salt and light to the culture open to being agents of change wherever God sends us? Or do we desire to live in our own sub-culture separate from the world having something to do with it only when we have to (like paying the water bill or going to the grocery)?
Myers Park Baptist Church became the first to be kicked out under rules passed at last year’s meeting. Those rules say any Baptist church that affirmed or endorsed homosexual behavior would be considered not to be cooperating with the convention.
The vote by the nearly 3,000 delegates came after two of the church’s leaders called on them to open their hearts to homosexuals who want to worship with them and to respect local autonomy in interpreting the Bible.
But convention president Allan Blume told the meeting that the Bible calls on believers to turn away from sin. He also suggested that Myers Park Baptist was mostly interested in seeking publicity for its views not in trying to work within the Baptist State Convention.
I liked your talking head remark. We elevate pastors too high. The gifts of the Holy Spirit do not start and stop at the pastoral level. The way we conduct church today is basically blocking the gifts of the Holy Spirit from being exercised in the church member. By the way we conduct church we are saying without words that only the pastor and the worship team have gifts of the Holy Spirit to offer. When people are treated like they have no gifts of the Holy Spirit to offer then why even attend a church. God has given all of us something to offer unto the edification of the saints yet basically we are told to sit down shut up and follow the man made agenda.
Let’s compare this to a healthy marriage. Imagine institutionalizing romance or making love or time with your children. If you institutionalize love you destroy what is special about it. If people feel like the only thing the church wants is their money because they have nothing else to offer then people will leave. I dropped out of church for the umteanth time 2 weeks ago. One sunday I got more out of mowing the lawn then church and this last sunday I took my sons to watch these gifted skate borders and free style bicyclist catch some air on a half pipe. As I watch these gifted kids on the ramp I realized that we all should take the gifts that God gives us to shine for the edification of our brethren but the church only allows the pastor and the worship team to shine. I personally will either never attend church again or start my own church before I sit in a pew listening to a talking head who actually makes God appear small.
But in reality the church doesn’t know what to do with the homosexual. We’ve reduced it to a single issue when it is more com-lex than that (nature/nurture).
Is it OK for a person to be a celibate Gay or does he/she have to convert to heterosexuality? Those kinds of things. We really are unclear in how to dea with them. It may never happen (like the issue of marrying divorced people) but it would do us good to at least have a loving yet biblical statement of the christian stance on the issue.
What does it mean that a pastor “shines”? They’re a herald. If they’re in it for themselves — if for example they have a strong psychological need to be needed — they shouldn’t be a pastor. The pastor’s role is to point people to Jesus Christ — not to himself.
Your talk about “man made agenda” just confuses me. What does that mean? What should it be like? A “God made” agenda? What does that mean anyway? Sorry but they just strike me as so many words.
It struck me today that the church is much too focused on itself and its survival. I was listening to Bob Coy on the radio and someone asked him about how you know your “calling.” Bob’s answer was solely focused on church stuff. Not even a mention about the many callings each Christian has each just as important (I would argue more important) as father husband wife employer/ee community members volunteers etc. etc.. We shouldn’t be spending a lot of time at church unless we’re on staff or the pastor. We need to be pushed out.
Your post makes me think that you’re throwing out the baby with the bathwater. I don’t agree with anything you said. But I’m sure you must have reasons for saying what you say.
The search for an idyllic/ideal church situation is a losing battle,a mirage. It’s never gonna happen. There will always be problems and issues. This is earth not heaven.
In our fellowship we welcome questions dialogue and other opinions in smaller setting such as home fellowships etc. I also see many of the gifts that seem to be lacking in the larger context being better exercised in those smaller settings.
I have a friend who was told by a woman she look up to that you must stay with “it” (her ministry commitment) and not seek a break “unless God Himself gives you one”. This is a woman who has 2 small kids a difficult marriage and a heart bigger than Alaska. Her role model is a paid professional worship leader. My friend is a volunteer mommy/wife. All I could tell her is her “mentor” was being self serving and her comment was sadly typical of someone in religious power.
If you need a break take one. You are certainly not taking a break from The Living God. Our brother. King David had a few things to say about how inescapable YHWH is no matter where one could go there HE is.
Where does the Bible give us a specific model for how to conduct church. The model that most churches follow is not always necessarily bad but it is man made. The book of Acts speaks of communion being a real meal shared in remembrance of Christ. Today our communion is an institutional fast food version of the real deal. Where did the little cracker come from or the shot glass of grape juice. Did God or the Apostles teach us this method? What about instituting 30 minutes of start and stop worship or a pastor doing all the talking. Who invented these methods? If you prove to me otherwise using the Bible then I will stop using the term “Man Made”.
You are right. Lately I have been writing a whole lot of articles and experiencing a great sense of relief. Soon I will have a full book written. I have made a commitment to never ever take money for this book. I want you all to remember this and hold me accountable if I ever go against my word.
I plan to stay here on the PP for hopefully a long time feeding and fellowshipping. There are a lot of gifted people participating here. Just because I get along best with Grendal does not mean the rest of you are not good for me too. Please understand how much I appreciate being here lately.
Having never been a “member” of a church though I am tolerated to some degree. I have never really thought about it. Me being able to be part of the group which is measured in not being told to get out was based entirely on my ability to perform. Once that changed my status changed. I have attended Church for 25 years but I am not a “member” in the sense of being on a church roll etc.
In every church I have ever attended I was always very involved in ministry tithed and a few times very few. I would ask for assistance for personal issues. I have often thought of actually joining a church but fear I will make a mistake and need to get the boot if I stay off the radar as much as possible I can sort of hang around if that makes sense.
Other thoughts: like Grendal. I had the thought that maybe you should take a year or two off from church. LIke he said the church is not Jesus. So don’t feel guilty! There are plenty of other areas of life to get involved with! I took off a couple of years a few years back and it’s one of the best things I ever did.
Do you think there is any connection with the Jew’s belief that you become one with the person you eat with me lovingly hand feeding my 3 year old and the way they did communion as a meal in the book of Acts? Maybe the Bible does tell us how do conduct Church after all. Maybe when Jesus held that last supper He was demonstrating something.
SolaI have encountered many who have been set free from the bondage of homosexuality and many who are in rebellion and choose to remain. I have never watered down the Gospels’ message or minimized the consequences of unrepentant sin. I also have never been accused of “hating fags”. The contrary has been true in my experience. Christ in me that weeps over those trapped in that lifestyle is the same Christ in me that cries out “Repent for the Kingdom of God is here!”
I think you missed the crux of my point. It really wasn’t as much about reaching homosexuals for Jesus as it was about seeing sin as God sees it and speaking to the same place in my fellow man that Jesus speaks to.
I was just reading and meditating on this hidden place. The longing we have for God is almost unexplainable. The closest human element that the Psalmist could compare it with was thirst and not even that of man but rather an animal. It also speaks of God being the health of my countenance even when my flesh suffers. And when it speaks of deep calling unto deep it struck me. This is my point! The place in us that God speaks to and has communion with is below the surface. It is the superficial man that needs to relate in terms of relevance.
Pastors are using their gifting just like anyone else in the body just because they are more visible makes them no more or less important. However it is a spiritual gifting. Not a big fan of some who call themselves Pastor but much the same as i am not to happy with people who have born the title President i cope. Attacking Pastors as a whole or even a segment for how they do worship is a useless excersize and is an example of the eye wanting to be an ear etc. Lets spend more time focusing on what God has called us to and less critisizing those who are doing what God has called them too and see what really happens in the body of Christ.
As for the new model of church is there really any need for one? I can find 14 different models of worship within the Lutheran church if i look around. People will find where God wants them to be if they ask Him.
As for changing methods we already do. Worship evolves to meet the generations. Looking to how it was done 2000 years afo in the Middle east and saying that what God has done today in America is wrong because it isnt the same goes beyond silly much the same as American pastors holding firmly to Moodys altar calls or the Pentecostals clinging to Asuza St. Great moves of God are exactly that but we cant see the new move of God when we are focused on the rearview mirror.
Lutheran I have read that book. It is maybe part but my experience runs more like the spirituality of pragmatism. Fellowship like any other operation in the supply chain is first functional measuring the cost benefit ratio and applying it. So community is a group of pragmatic individuals agreeing on a collective that functions for the betterment of the individual. It functions.
revision to my pessimism. I try to remain separate but then God projects something to me. I was watching Christian TV and this show came on about gospel for Asia. I will admit it with some reluctance because it is somewhat emotional something I really try to avoid. That may sound silly but those who know me I think understand the reluctance I have about showing such “emotions”. True confessions aside under the Radar usually way under I find these little niches that just hit home.
You see I still believe that the Gospel is the only hope. I actually see India not Pakistan as the key to this area. If one looks at history India resembles our nation right before the first and to some degree second great awakening. One difference is that there are billions involved. Just imagine the Gospel broke down the class system to some degree in India and it was the Gospel. I truly believe this is the next move of the Holy Spirit. To be Honest I try to fight these feelings. I really try to just let all this be water off the ducks back. But I find this deeply moving. My fear is that I will find out that I am being lied to again and its not a real move just some scam.
The organization seems sound and the move is needed. I actually dont understand why I feel ashame for feeling but I still allow myself to feel reluctantly. But God moves and I truly want to be part of that Move. Ok my true confession.
Reading this thread it reminds me of something said to me - that’s it’s in my best interest to treat others as I wish to be treated. Because in the long run I generally get back what I give out. I think sometimes that we all justify insensitive behavior by claiming to be right. There is a saying that the highest form of wisdom is kindness. Now if today I can just listen to my words and watch my actions - that’s the tough part.
CS Lewis“(1) I find that the uneducated Englishman is an almost total sceptic about history. I had expected he would disbelieve the Gospels because they contain miracles; but he really disbelieves them because they deal with things that happened two thousand years ago. He would disbelieve equally in the battle of Actium if he heard of it. To those who have had our kind of education his state of mind is very difficult to realize. To us the present has always appeared as one section in a huge continuous process. In his mind the present occupies almost the whole field of vision. Beyond it isolated from it and quite unimportant is something called “the old days”– a small comic jungle in which highwaymen. Queen Elizabeth knights-in-armour etc wander about. Then (strangest of all) beyond the old days come a picture of “primitive man.” He is “science,” not “history,” and is therefore felt to be much more real that the old days. In other words the prehistoric is much more believed in than the historic.
(2) He has a distrust (very rational in the state of his knowledge) of ancient texts. Thus a man has sometimes said to me. “These records were written in the days before printing weren’t they? And you haven’t got the original bit of paper have you? So what it comes to is that someone wrote something and someone else copied it and someone else copied that and so on. Well by the time it comes it us it won’t be in the least like the original” This is a difficult objection to deal with because one cannot there and then start teaching the whole science of textual criticism. But at this point their real religion (i e faith in “science”) has come to my aid. The assurance that there is a “science” called “textual criticism” and that its results (not only as regard the New Testament but as regards ancient texts in general) are generally accepted will usually be received without objection. (I need hardly point out that the word “text” must not be used since to your audience it means only “a scriptural quotation. “)
(3) A sense of sin is almost totally lacking. Our situation is thus very different from that of the apostles. The Pagans (and still more the metuentes) to whom they preached were haunted by a sense of guilt and to them the Gospel was therefore. “good news.” We address people who have been trained to believe that whatever goes wrong in the world is someone else’s fault–the capitalists’ the government’s the Nazis the generals’ etc. They approach God Himself as his judges. They want to know not whether they can be acquitted for sin but whether He can be acquitted for creating such a world.
In attacking this fatal insensibility it is useless to direct attention (a) To sins your audience do not commit or (b) To things they do but do not regard as sins. They are usually not drunkards. They are mostly fornicators but then they do not feel fornication to be wrong. It is therefore useless to dwell on either of these subjects. (Now that contraceptives have removed the obvious uncharitable element in fornication I do not myself think we can expect people to recognize it as sin until they have accepted Christianity as a whole.)
I cannot offer you a water tight technique for awakening the sense of sin. I can only say that in my experience if one begins from the sin that has been one’s own chief problem during the last week one is very often surprised at the way this shaft goes home. But whatever method we use our continual effort must be to get their mind away from public affairs and “crime” and bring them down to brass tacks–to the whole network of spite greed envy unfairness and conceit in the lives of “ordinary decent people” like themselves (and ourselves).
(4) We must learn the language of our audience. And let me say at the outset that it is no use at all laying down a priori what the “plain man” does or does not understand. You have to find out by experience. Thus most of us would have supposed that the change from “may truly and indifferently minister justice” to “may truly and impartially” made that place easier to the uneducated; but a priest of my acquaintance discovered that his sexton saw no difficulty in indifferently (“It means making no difference between one man and another,” he said) but had no idea what impartially meant.
ATONEMENT. Does not really exist in a spoken modern English though it would be recognized as “a religious word.” Insofar as it conveys any meaning to the uneducated I think it means compensation. No one word will express to them what Christians mean by atonement: you must paraphrase.
BEING. (noun) Never means merely “entity” in popular speech. Often it means what we should call a “personal being” (e g a man said to me “I believe in the Holy Ghost but I don’t think He is a being!”)
CHARITY. Means (a) alms (b) a “charitable organization” (c) Much more rarely–indulgence (i e a “charitable attitude toward a man is conceived as one that denies or condones his sins not as one that loves the sinner in spite of them).
CHRISTIAN. Has come to include almost no idea of belief. Usually a vague term of approval. The question “What do you call a Christian?” has been asked of me again and again. The answer they wish to receive is “ A Christian is a decent chap who is unselfish etc.
CHURCH. Means (a) A sacred building. (b) the clergy. Does not suggest to them the “company of all faithful people.” Generally used in a bad sense. Direct defense of the church is part of our duty; but use of the word church where there is not time to defend it alienates sympathy and should be avoided where possible.
CRUCIFIXION. CROSS etc. Centuries of hymnody and religious cant have so exhausted these words that they now very faintly –if at all–convey the idea of execution by torture. It is better to paraphrase; and for the same reason to say flogged for the New Testament scourged.
SACRIFICE. Has no associations with the temple and altar. They are familiar with this word only in the journalistic sense (“The nation must be prepared for heavy sacrifices.”)
SPIRITUAL. Means primarily immaterial incorporeal but with serious confusion from the Christian use of “spirit” hence the idea that whatever is “spiritual” in the sense of “no sensuous” is somehow better than anything sensuous: e g they don’t really believe that envy could be as bad as drunkenness.
VULGARITY. Usually means obscenity or “smut.” There are bad confusions (and not only in uneducated minds) between: (a) The obscene or lascivious: what is calculated to provoke lust. (b) The indecorous: what offends against good taste or propriety. (c) The vulgar proper: what is socially “low.” “Good” people tend to think (b) as sinful as (a) with the result that others feel (a) to be just as innocent as (b).
To conclude– you must translate every bit of your theology into the vernacular. This is very troublesome and it means you can say very little in half an hour but it is essential. It is also of the greatest service to your own thought. I have come to the conviction that if you cannot translate your thoughts into uneducated language then your thoughts were confused. Power to translate is the test of having really understood one’s own meaning. A passage from some theological work for translation into the vernacular ought to be a compulsory paper in every ordination examination.”
“I cannot offer you a water tight technique for awakening the sense of sin. I can only say that in my experience if one begins from the sin that has been one’s own chief problem during the last week one is very often surprised at the way this shaft goes home.”
“To conclude– you must translate every bit of your theology into the vernacular. This is very troublesome and it means you can say very little in half an hour but it is essential. It is also of the greatest service to your own thought. I have come to the conviction that if you cannot translate your thoughts into uneducated language then your thoughts were confused. Power to translate is the test of having really understood one’s own meaning. A passage from some theological work for translation into the vernacular ought to be a compulsory paper in every ordination examination.”
True. While the gospel is the definitive answer to man’s need culture has shaped the method the message was communicated. I think each one of the gospel’s reflect that. In Matthew for instance the message was the arrival of the kingdom of God. A message the gentile world was not really concerned with. It would not have resonated with them. Mark and Luke appeal to a more crowd. John resonates with the more mystical and focuses on the Lordship of Jesus. Each are correct yet each author under the guidance of the HS had in mind a different culture. And we do not need to abandon the gosepl message for the culture. WE need to understand it to affectively give them the gospel where they will receive it. That’s the problem we face now. We declare the truth but it is not received largely because the truth we declare is often times tainted with hidden agenda or culture. For instance in the Philippines some missionaries had little success after years of work. They left. A group came in after them and were told the reason they rejected not the gospel but the American culture that was mixed into the gospel.
We can do the same; we can share our American or culture influenced gospel. And people see the hidden agenda agenda ( join our club vote Republican hate fags be judgmental) and reject it. I am not suggesting we water down what the scriptures say but we must find a way to communicate the message balacning the pure truth of the gospel with a loving respectful attitude of Christ
“I have a friend who pastors in the suburbs of San Diego…there are mega churches all around him. In fact David Jeremiah is right next door…DJ teaches the Bible and Shadow Mtn is a great church.
My friend was getting frustrated because his church isn’t really growing…so I asked him. “_______ what is your identity? In other words why does your church exist?”
This town has cowboy churches already…we aren’t called to that. There are people moving here from other parts of the NW and from So. Cal like crazy. The town is changing and our church is reaching those people. There were also people who grew up here but didn’t fit what was the cultural norm.
Guys we aren’t the only one’s teaching through books of the Bible…we aren’t the only one’s worshipping in a modern style…we aren’t the only one’s loving the sheep.
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